I do not mind debate and discussion at all. I do delete personal attacks, because I want this to be a respectful forum. Thanks!

Fair enough.

Also, I like how you let the topic of rape/not rape turn into a discussion instead of just shutting it down, even though some of the commenters were quite critical (but polite) about your views. I appreciate it.

I don’t think we disagree really. However, having known quite a few women in abusive relationships, and knowing some of them get wrong messages even from other Christians that they “owe” their husbands sex no matter what, my “communication must be clear” is intended to encourage wives to speak up for themselves when they don’t want to engage.

Of course, if she’s pushing you away, dude, that’s a no. A husband doesn’t get to declare “mixed signals!” and go for it. I repeatedly say on this blog that a spouse cannot force or demand sex from their spouse. That’s not God’s design for sex, period. Thanks!

I more or less agree with the DoJ definition, where an explicit “yes” is required, regardless of circumstances. It doesn’t have to be verbal– the spouse can show that they are eager and willing through their body language– but if the spouse says yes but their body language says no, or their body language says yes but they say no, then you don’t have consent and you need to stop, or else it’s rape. Mixed messages, where any part of the message is “no”, = no consent.

I feel that such a definition is necessary for all of the cases in which non-consensual sex occurs in the context of an abusive relationship. The abused spouse may not want sex and not want to consent to it, but cannot explicitly stand up for themself or say “no” clearly without risking physical or emotional violence. In that case, maybe the best the spouse can do is weakly protest, or indicate that they’re not into it with their body language. And that has to be good enough.

And this kind of abusive relationship is one of the scenarios which is strongly implicated in the original letter– “If I don’t engage in sex at his desire, it quickly leads to resentment, emotional distance and eventually hurtful words.” That’s manipulation and emotional blackmail, if not verbal abuse.

I agree with what you say. But I will add that some Christian wives, throughout history and today, have received messages from churches and other Christians to put up with all kinds of terrible stuff in their marriages, often using the “submission clause” as an excuse. However, God never intended for us to enable sinful acts. His Word states that we are to obey God above men (Daniel 3:16-18, Acts 5:29) and that abuse should be counteracted with justice (Isaiah 1:17). Moreover, the Bible simply cannot get any clearer in its position against domestic violence than this verse from Psalm 11:5: “The Lord examines the righteous, but the wicked, those who love violence, he hates with a passion.” Why? Because such violence hurts His child.

Thanks, alchemist!

Indeed. Thank you for taking this up again. That e-mail from Monday bothered me all week.

I believe the people teaching that women have no value is not the church, but the culture. Radical feminists want to destroy any expression of femininity and make us all like men. Or even better unisex. Queer theorists try to deny gender entirely. Hookup culture and pornography treat women as commodities which leads directly to rape culture. Porn is inextricably linked to sex trafficking, where women are just straight up sold as slaves.

Then we have the whole 50 Shades thing where abuse of all kinds is glorified as “sexual freedom” or some nonsense. What is the Anna other than a commodity/ sex slave? And the portrayal of such behaviour is endorsed and celebrated by the culture. Nowhere in the bible did God approve abuse. I don’t even think the way out quiver full people actually explicitly puts a stamp of approval on abuse.

I’ve always loved that the first person to see the resurrected Jesus…was a woman. That was rather scandalous for the time, having a female as the eyewitness. But it showed that God valued the faith of women.

😀

Well-said! Thank you, Bonny.