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	<title>
	Comments on: Q&#038;A with J: Why Doesn&#8217;t the Church Talk about Song of Songs?	</title>
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	<link>https://hotholyhumorous.com/2016/10/20/qa-with-j-why-doesnt-the-church-talk-about-song-of-songs/</link>
	<description>God&#039;s Design for Marital Intimacy</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 30 Aug 2017 15:48:13 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: Adam		</title>
		<link>https://hotholyhumorous.com/2016/10/20/qa-with-j-why-doesnt-the-church-talk-about-song-of-songs/#comment-66022</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Adam]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Aug 2017 15:48:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://hotholyhumorous.com/?p=18258#comment-66022</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Most pastors are men and simply do not want to deal with the controversy they will encounter. I think they would be afraid that most women would feel like it&#039;s just another man telling them to have more sex.  It is much easier to discuss what not to do and what is sinful. I have heard far more about the dangers of pornography than I have ever heard about the joys to be found in the marriage bed. Man up church leaders. Face the controversy and discomfort. Women are missing out just as much as men because of fear and confusion from the church. It does take courage.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Most pastors are men and simply do not want to deal with the controversy they will encounter. I think they would be afraid that most women would feel like it&#8217;s just another man telling them to have more sex.  It is much easier to discuss what not to do and what is sinful. I have heard far more about the dangers of pornography than I have ever heard about the joys to be found in the marriage bed. Man up church leaders. Face the controversy and discomfort. Women are missing out just as much as men because of fear and confusion from the church. It does take courage.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Q&#038;A with J: &#8220;Our Marriage Bed is a Mess&#8221; &#124; Hot, Holy &#38; Humorous		</title>
		<link>https://hotholyhumorous.com/2016/10/20/qa-with-j-why-doesnt-the-church-talk-about-song-of-songs/#comment-65590</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Q&#038;A with J: &#8220;Our Marriage Bed is a Mess&#8221; &#124; Hot, Holy &#38; Humorous]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Aug 2017 19:58:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://hotholyhumorous.com/?p=18258#comment-65590</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[[&#8230;] and that&#8217;s something I&#8217;ve tried to address often. It&#8217;s also a problem that our churches and pastors don&#8217;t talk enough about sex and marriage. Sometimes what we spread is just [&#8230;]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] and that&#8217;s something I&#8217;ve tried to address often. It&#8217;s also a problem that our churches and pastors don&#8217;t talk enough about sex and marriage. Sometimes what we spread is just [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>
		By: alchemist		</title>
		<link>https://hotholyhumorous.com/2016/10/20/qa-with-j-why-doesnt-the-church-talk-about-song-of-songs/#comment-58872</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[alchemist]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Oct 2016 14:19:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://hotholyhumorous.com/?p=18258#comment-58872</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I always thought that it would be very excluding to preach on Song of Solomon in church. You immediately exclude the children, the unmarried students, the single adults the divorcees and the widdows/ widowers. This list is 2/3 of our church. It&#039;s not that our church shies away from teaching all of scripture faithfully, it&#039;s just that they tend to preach on the New testament during the school year and an old testament book in summer. There are 66 books. It took my pastor almost 3 years to get through Relevations . Its not suprising  that they haven&#039;t got to SoS. It&#039;s not some kind of mysterious conspiracy if the pastor chooses the psalms of repentance, judges, the life of David or the life of Joseph over SoS for the summer series.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I always thought that it would be very excluding to preach on Song of Solomon in church. You immediately exclude the children, the unmarried students, the single adults the divorcees and the widdows/ widowers. This list is 2/3 of our church. It&#8217;s not that our church shies away from teaching all of scripture faithfully, it&#8217;s just that they tend to preach on the New testament during the school year and an old testament book in summer. There are 66 books. It took my pastor almost 3 years to get through Relevations . Its not suprising  that they haven&#8217;t got to SoS. It&#8217;s not some kind of mysterious conspiracy if the pastor chooses the psalms of repentance, judges, the life of David or the life of Joseph over SoS for the summer series.</p>
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		<title>
		By: a. nony		</title>
		<link>https://hotholyhumorous.com/2016/10/20/qa-with-j-why-doesnt-the-church-talk-about-song-of-songs/#comment-58770</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[a. nony]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Oct 2016 21:01:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://hotholyhumorous.com/?p=18258#comment-58770</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://hotholyhumorous.com/2016/10/20/qa-with-j-why-doesnt-the-church-talk-about-song-of-songs/#comment-58635&quot;&gt;Lynn&lt;/a&gt;.

&quot;The idea of the Church as Bride of Christ originates with that effeminate guy, St. Paul.&quot; First off, you need to watch how you refer to an apostle of Christ, friend. Secondly, God uses feminine language to describe HIMSELF throughout the bible. While he is our Father, he is also referred to as someone who conceives, gives birth to, and nurses Israel at his breast (Numbers 11), as a mother eagle teaching her young to fly (Deuteronomy 32), as the &quot;God who gave you birth&quot; (also Deuteronomy 32), as a woman crying out while giving birth (Isaiah 42), a mother comforting her child (Isaiah 66), as the one whose womb gives birth to ice and frost (Job 38), etc. 

The idea that it&#039;s some kind of weakening or destruction of the strength of the message of the gospel to be associated with women or femininity is an insult and an affront to the God who said, &quot;Let us make man in our image,&quot; and then made them MALE AND FEMALE in order to fulfill that intention.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://hotholyhumorous.com/2016/10/20/qa-with-j-why-doesnt-the-church-talk-about-song-of-songs/#comment-58635">Lynn</a>.</p>
<p>&#8220;The idea of the Church as Bride of Christ originates with that effeminate guy, St. Paul.&#8221; First off, you need to watch how you refer to an apostle of Christ, friend. Secondly, God uses feminine language to describe HIMSELF throughout the bible. While he is our Father, he is also referred to as someone who conceives, gives birth to, and nurses Israel at his breast (Numbers 11), as a mother eagle teaching her young to fly (Deuteronomy 32), as the &#8220;God who gave you birth&#8221; (also Deuteronomy 32), as a woman crying out while giving birth (Isaiah 42), a mother comforting her child (Isaiah 66), as the one whose womb gives birth to ice and frost (Job 38), etc. </p>
<p>The idea that it&#8217;s some kind of weakening or destruction of the strength of the message of the gospel to be associated with women or femininity is an insult and an affront to the God who said, &#8220;Let us make man in our image,&#8221; and then made them MALE AND FEMALE in order to fulfill that intention.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Eric Wiggin		</title>
		<link>https://hotholyhumorous.com/2016/10/20/qa-with-j-why-doesnt-the-church-talk-about-song-of-songs/#comment-58689</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Eric Wiggin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Oct 2016 15:46:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://hotholyhumorous.com/?p=18258#comment-58689</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[J,
This was the BEST post I&#039;ve seen from you yet; many of the best answers, too. Most of your respondents to this were male! I guess maybe you were talking from your head, more than your heart! Good for you--you gave us something solid to chew on. 

The BEST book I&#039;ve seen on the Song of Solomon is SONG OF SONGS, a Reformed Expository Commentary, by Iaian Duguid. He sees the SONG as both an allegory of Christ and His church, and as a love manual. Published in 2016, hardbound only, just 182 pages, it&#039;s an engaging read, and my copy is heavily marked up and highlighted. 

A couple of observations re your very accurate historical comments: The philosophy that for nearly two millennia destroyed the Song for most readers is called Gnosticism. Its origin is Greek philosophy (Plato et al), and it teaches that spirit is good and flesh is evil--as you observed. Augustine, Jerome (contemporaries from c. A. D. 400), along with Thomas Aquinas introduced these into Christianity, perverting God&#039;s gift of married sex. Many evangelical Protestant writers (besides a myriad of Catholics) have followed their lead in writing their own deadening commentaries on the SONG, including the well-known &quot;Prince of Preachers&quot; Charles Spurgeon. I was taught in Bible College in the 1950s that it was only an allegory; famous commentator Matthew Henry said that when you read the Song of Solomon forget that you have a body. And so it goes.

The SONG is both.

So I&#039;ll wrap up with an extrapolation on Paul. He wrote that Christ washes his bride &quot;with the washing of water of the Word (of God). It&#039;s only a short step to the human husband inviting his bride naked into the shower, then getting frisky with the soap and wash cloth!

Eric]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>J,<br />
This was the BEST post I&#8217;ve seen from you yet; many of the best answers, too. Most of your respondents to this were male! I guess maybe you were talking from your head, more than your heart! Good for you&#8211;you gave us something solid to chew on. </p>
<p>The BEST book I&#8217;ve seen on the Song of Solomon is SONG OF SONGS, a Reformed Expository Commentary, by Iaian Duguid. He sees the SONG as both an allegory of Christ and His church, and as a love manual. Published in 2016, hardbound only, just 182 pages, it&#8217;s an engaging read, and my copy is heavily marked up and highlighted. </p>
<p>A couple of observations re your very accurate historical comments: The philosophy that for nearly two millennia destroyed the Song for most readers is called Gnosticism. Its origin is Greek philosophy (Plato et al), and it teaches that spirit is good and flesh is evil&#8211;as you observed. Augustine, Jerome (contemporaries from c. A. D. 400), along with Thomas Aquinas introduced these into Christianity, perverting God&#8217;s gift of married sex. Many evangelical Protestant writers (besides a myriad of Catholics) have followed their lead in writing their own deadening commentaries on the SONG, including the well-known &#8220;Prince of Preachers&#8221; Charles Spurgeon. I was taught in Bible College in the 1950s that it was only an allegory; famous commentator Matthew Henry said that when you read the Song of Solomon forget that you have a body. And so it goes.</p>
<p>The SONG is both.</p>
<p>So I&#8217;ll wrap up with an extrapolation on Paul. He wrote that Christ washes his bride &#8220;with the washing of water of the Word (of God). It&#8217;s only a short step to the human husband inviting his bride naked into the shower, then getting frisky with the soap and wash cloth!</p>
<p>Eric</p>
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		<title>
		By: J		</title>
		<link>https://hotholyhumorous.com/2016/10/20/qa-with-j-why-doesnt-the-church-talk-about-song-of-songs/#comment-58674</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[J]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Oct 2016 11:58:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://hotholyhumorous.com/?p=18258#comment-58674</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://hotholyhumorous.com/2016/10/20/qa-with-j-why-doesnt-the-church-talk-about-song-of-songs/#comment-58659&quot;&gt;Bobthemusicguy&lt;/a&gt;.

That&#039;s lovely. Thanks for sharing.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://hotholyhumorous.com/2016/10/20/qa-with-j-why-doesnt-the-church-talk-about-song-of-songs/#comment-58659">Bobthemusicguy</a>.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s lovely. Thanks for sharing.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Bobthemusicguy		</title>
		<link>https://hotholyhumorous.com/2016/10/20/qa-with-j-why-doesnt-the-church-talk-about-song-of-songs/#comment-58659</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bobthemusicguy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Oct 2016 03:05:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://hotholyhumorous.com/?p=18258#comment-58659</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://hotholyhumorous.com/2016/10/20/qa-with-j-why-doesnt-the-church-talk-about-song-of-songs/#comment-58638&quot;&gt;J&lt;/a&gt;.

J, I&#039;m interested in your wondering how the guys feel about songs like that. I&#039;ve been doing a lot of thinking the past several months about human marriage as an analogy for the relationship between Christ and His church. As a man, I can readily connect with Jesus as my master, lord, warrior, father, brother, friend. But I got stopped at &quot;bride&quot;. That got me rethinking Ephesians 5. When men are told to love their wives as Christ loves the church, it&#039;s usually watered down to a simple &quot;love your wife sacrificially&quot; injunction. But what does that look like in my life and my marriage?

I found inspiration in Song of Solomon, and other scriptures. By analyzing the role of the bride, I began to make a list of what &quot;submit&quot; consists of. Even the physical act of intercourse has analogies that are worth considering. I think the Song of Solomon shows ecstasy in making love, with the kind of abandon that we should experience with Christ.

And this exploration convinced me that when a husband and wife relate to each other, even in the throes of sexual abandon, we are, if you will, enacting a sacred drama that shows the depth of God&#039;s love for us, and the love we should have for Him in return. And it makes me takes my role as the &quot;christ&quot; in this drama much more seriously and spurs me on to be a more Christ-like husband to my wife.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://hotholyhumorous.com/2016/10/20/qa-with-j-why-doesnt-the-church-talk-about-song-of-songs/#comment-58638">J</a>.</p>
<p>J, I&#8217;m interested in your wondering how the guys feel about songs like that. I&#8217;ve been doing a lot of thinking the past several months about human marriage as an analogy for the relationship between Christ and His church. As a man, I can readily connect with Jesus as my master, lord, warrior, father, brother, friend. But I got stopped at &#8220;bride&#8221;. That got me rethinking Ephesians 5. When men are told to love their wives as Christ loves the church, it&#8217;s usually watered down to a simple &#8220;love your wife sacrificially&#8221; injunction. But what does that look like in my life and my marriage?</p>
<p>I found inspiration in Song of Solomon, and other scriptures. By analyzing the role of the bride, I began to make a list of what &#8220;submit&#8221; consists of. Even the physical act of intercourse has analogies that are worth considering. I think the Song of Solomon shows ecstasy in making love, with the kind of abandon that we should experience with Christ.</p>
<p>And this exploration convinced me that when a husband and wife relate to each other, even in the throes of sexual abandon, we are, if you will, enacting a sacred drama that shows the depth of God&#8217;s love for us, and the love we should have for Him in return. And it makes me takes my role as the &#8220;christ&#8221; in this drama much more seriously and spurs me on to be a more Christ-like husband to my wife.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Ol' Will		</title>
		<link>https://hotholyhumorous.com/2016/10/20/qa-with-j-why-doesnt-the-church-talk-about-song-of-songs/#comment-58656</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ol' Will]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Oct 2016 02:01:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://hotholyhumorous.com/?p=18258#comment-58656</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://hotholyhumorous.com/2016/10/20/qa-with-j-why-doesnt-the-church-talk-about-song-of-songs/#comment-58638&quot;&gt;J&lt;/a&gt;.

J,
I think his reference to the effeminate Paul was sarcasm.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://hotholyhumorous.com/2016/10/20/qa-with-j-why-doesnt-the-church-talk-about-song-of-songs/#comment-58638">J</a>.</p>
<p>J,<br />
I think his reference to the effeminate Paul was sarcasm.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Lynn		</title>
		<link>https://hotholyhumorous.com/2016/10/20/qa-with-j-why-doesnt-the-church-talk-about-song-of-songs/#comment-58653</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Lynn]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Oct 2016 23:54:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://hotholyhumorous.com/?p=18258#comment-58653</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Sorry, J., I was being sarcastic about &#039;effeminate&#039; Paul.  I meant to express that I disliked what Mattingly said.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, J., I was being sarcastic about &#8216;effeminate&#8217; Paul.  I meant to express that I disliked what Mattingly said.</p>
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		<title>
		By: J		</title>
		<link>https://hotholyhumorous.com/2016/10/20/qa-with-j-why-doesnt-the-church-talk-about-song-of-songs/#comment-58638</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[J]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Oct 2016 20:54:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://hotholyhumorous.com/?p=18258#comment-58638</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://hotholyhumorous.com/2016/10/20/qa-with-j-why-doesnt-the-church-talk-about-song-of-songs/#comment-58635&quot;&gt;Lynn&lt;/a&gt;.

I disagree. Yes, I think there&#039;s been some feminization of Christianity, which I thought the book WHY MEN HATE GOING TO CHURCH? did a pretty good job of discussing. One of the things mentioned, with which I agree, is our affinity for &quot;love songs to Jesus.&quot; I&#039;ve often wondered how my all male family (hubby, two sons) feel singing lyrics like &quot;You&#039;re so beautiful, Jesus&quot; or &quot;I long for your embrace.&quot;

At the same time, the notion of the Church being God&#039;s bride did not at all originate with St. Paul (and I have no idea why you would think he&#039;s effeminate). Isaiah 62:5 says, &quot;Then God will rejoice over you as a bridegroom rejoices over his bride&quot;; Hosea 2:15 says, &quot;&#039;When that day comes,” says the Lord, &#039;you will call me &quot;my husband&quot; instead of &quot;my master.&quot;&#039;&quot;; and Jeremiah 3:31 says, &quot;&#039;This covenant will not be like the one I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand and brought them out of the land of Egypt. They broke that covenant, though I loved them as a husband loves his wife,&#039; says the Lord.&quot; You can see even more examples here: &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/revelation/related-topics/israel-married-to-jehovah.html&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/revelation/related-topics/israel-married-to-jehovah.html&lt;/a&gt;. It&#039;s throughout Scripture; as such, it&#039;s a valid way of viewing our relationship with God. Indeed, I believe that marital intimacy &lt;em&gt;reflects &lt;/em&gt;the level of intimacy God wants us to have with Him someday.

Yet I do agree that the language in Song of Songs seems far more husband-wife than Christ-people. Which is why I think you can draw some allegorical inferences, but it&#039;s not really the point of the book. It&#039;s about married love.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://hotholyhumorous.com/2016/10/20/qa-with-j-why-doesnt-the-church-talk-about-song-of-songs/#comment-58635">Lynn</a>.</p>
<p>I disagree. Yes, I think there&#8217;s been some feminization of Christianity, which I thought the book WHY MEN HATE GOING TO CHURCH? did a pretty good job of discussing. One of the things mentioned, with which I agree, is our affinity for &#8220;love songs to Jesus.&#8221; I&#8217;ve often wondered how my all male family (hubby, two sons) feel singing lyrics like &#8220;You&#8217;re so beautiful, Jesus&#8221; or &#8220;I long for your embrace.&#8221;</p>
<p>At the same time, the notion of the Church being God&#8217;s bride did not at all originate with St. Paul (and I have no idea why you would think he&#8217;s effeminate). Isaiah 62:5 says, &#8220;Then God will rejoice over you as a bridegroom rejoices over his bride&#8221;; Hosea 2:15 says, &#8220;&#8216;When that day comes,” says the Lord, &#8216;you will call me &#8220;my husband&#8221; instead of &#8220;my master.&#8221;&#8216;&#8221;; and Jeremiah 3:31 says, &#8220;&#8216;This covenant will not be like the one I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand and brought them out of the land of Egypt. They broke that covenant, though I loved them as a husband loves his wife,&#8217; says the Lord.&#8221; You can see even more examples here: <a href="http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/revelation/related-topics/israel-married-to-jehovah.html" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/revelation/related-topics/israel-married-to-jehovah.html</a>. It&#8217;s throughout Scripture; as such, it&#8217;s a valid way of viewing our relationship with God. Indeed, I believe that marital intimacy <em>reflects </em>the level of intimacy God wants us to have with Him someday.</p>
<p>Yet I do agree that the language in Song of Songs seems far more husband-wife than Christ-people. Which is why I think you can draw some allegorical inferences, but it&#8217;s not really the point of the book. It&#8217;s about married love.</p>
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